SGA Meta (JF/John Sheppard) & The Return squee!
Sunday, 24 September 2006 16:16![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
druidspellThe Joe Flanigan/John Sheppard meta on whether or not JF is a good actor (because people rant that he's not) is copy/pasted almost entirely from my comments on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
seperis's livejournal entry on the same subject.
The topic of JF being a bad actor normally comes up in conjunction with the topic of David Hewlett (Rodney McKay, henceforth referred to whenever possible as DH) being a great actor [as if one cannot be good if the other is good; or as if they are mutually exclusive; or as if to make DH seem better, one must denigrate his costars, namely JF]
One of the things thatseperis brought up is whether or not it was because DH is so flamboyant as Rodney McKay, and whether it was just that people perceived the more flamboyant actor as being the better and more skilled actor.
It's easy to think that DH is amazing for a few reasons.
1) He is amazing. He's an incredibly versatile actor with a lot of experience, and it shows.
2) As Rodney McKay, he is flamboyant to an extent that I think there should be another word for it. Every time DH is onscreen on SGA, there is no way for him to sit quietly in the background; when Rodney is in a scene, there is always some peripheral part of the scene that is focused on him.
3) As Rodney McKay, he gets to save the day. A lot. In lots of cool ways.
4) Because he's not traditionally hot. In general, the perception of not-so-traditionally-hot people is that they must have some sort of mad ninja skills or something to go along with and augment whatever else they're doing (in DH's case, acting).
This does not, however, mean that JF is a bad actor.
As Sheppard, JF is playing a character who is much more subtle, complicated, and much more private. Sheppard, before crash-landing O'Neill, had never heard of gates, or the Stargate Program, or anything else--whereas Rodney had made it his life's work. He wasn't meant to be in command of the expedition, and sometimes he doesn't do a great job (see Hot Zone for example) because he doesn't have the command experience and general know-how that a more experienced officer would.
The thing is, JF is playing a character who is flawed. John--God knows I love him--is not perfect. He's not always the best, but he does his damnedest. And JF acts him that way, which in my opinion, makes him a great actor.
It takes a lot of skill to be an actor who is constantly ON in a role (DH as Rodney). It takes a lot of skill (albeit a different sort) to play a character who is as subtle as Sheppard. JF has that skill, and I like it.
And to DH fans who bash JF... DH is awesome enough without you bashing his coworkers. Saying that Joe Flanigan (or Torri Higginson, or Paul McGillion, or Rachel Luttrell, or Jason Momoa, or whoever) is a bad actor does not make DH more awesome. It just makes you look like anasshat idiot.
I think maybe it's the character of Rodney rubbing off on the DH fangirls--Rodney's very in-your-face, very "I'm so very right and you are wrong, wrong, so very pathetically wrong" at times, and his fans just absorbed that attitude in an unfortunate way.
Whereas John is more subtle, a little more oddball, less in-your-face... but he can be sharp and on-target and "I can kill you in 47 different ways without breaking a sweat, but I'll let you live... or not." And some of JF's fans can definitely do that, as well.
Character influences fans? Or fans just being that way naturally? Are DH's fangirls naturally more "I'm right and you are horribly wrong" and JF's fangirls naturally more "I'll put up with you to a point, but then I'm gonna make your momma cry when she sees what I've done to you"? Or did our favorite characters make us this way?
The way I see it is, I love all of John's team.
But the reason that John is (and always will be) my OTC isn't because he and I are both introverts, or because I think that Sheppard is inherently better than any of the other characters, is because he just seems so REAL to me.
I mean, I know people like John Sheppard. They made a choice, it had unexpected consequences, and they weren't (and aren't) always prepared for exactly what those consequences would be, but they do their best to deal and go on with their life anyway.
Case in (fairly long) point: John Sheppard was in Antarctica because at some point in time, he decided to join the Air Force. He then completed training to be an officer, and eventually was stationed in Afghanistan where he screwed up by doing what he thought was right (and what his COs thought directly conflicted with his orders).
Once in Antarctica, he made the best of it ("I kind of like it"), and when a weird glowing squid thing came out of the ice to attack the chopper he was piloting, he did the best he could, landed, and ended up going under the ice. Where he sat in a chair, activated the Ancient Tech like no one's business, and was bullied onto the expedition roster. He went through (presumably) a crash course on the Stargate Program, the history of the Ancients, and Would-you-like-to-be-on-the-expedition-why-of-course-you-would-it's-the-opportunity-of-a-lifetime. And then he went on a mission where he ended up having to shoot his CO, and suddenly, he's in charge of the military force of an expedition he joined at the very last minute.
Point is, John Sheppard did not ask for this life. He wanted to be a pilot, he joined the USAF. The rest of it kind of fell into place like particularly screwed-up dominoes. But John deals with it the best he can, and he's not so over-the-top that you'd think he never has any doubts, because obviously he does. He doesn't actually have the experience of a good base commander, but he does his damnedest not to let his people down. He's a REAL person.
And I like that, because that makes him seem like someone that I could know, and not just a character on a (really cool) TV show that's so far beyond my ken as to be laughable. McKay, however cool and smart I think he is, is nothing like anyone I've ever met before in my life; it fits him for the purposes of the show, because I don't think the world could stand too many Rodney McKays, but it doesn't fit for purposes of becoming my OTC, because I just can't relate to him. Teyla and Ronon, god knows I love all of John's team, I don't know anyone like them. They're kind of like ideals, less like real people I might meet on the street, all unknowing. They're so strong and persistent and patient (in different ways, but they both have these traits) that I look up to them in a way, but I don't feel like they're real in the same way that John, my lovably-flawed and human John, seems to be.
My favorite bit of John thus far in S3 was in Sateda when he and Teyla were talking onboard the Daedalus, and he awkwardly tried to verbalize that the expedition in general (and his team in particular) were his family. It was awkward, because John Sheppard is not about big emotional over-the-top declarations, but it was REAL. And that will hook me faster and more thoroughly than any heroic over-the-top speeches.
queen_of_goat made a couple of comments in response to seperis that I particularly agreed with:
Joe thinks so much about who John is as a person and all he can think is that John wouldn't stand there for 10 seconds with a tense look on his face, he would get off his ass and do something.
Another reason why John seems real to me--JF puts visible effort into getting inside John's head, and so it leads me to think, "It's not that he's a bad actor at all--because he's not. It's not that John Sheppard's a bad character, or that JF plays him poorly--because he's not and Joe doesn't. It's more that the writers are trying to do a lot of things, and don't always think, 'Would John Sheppard do this?'"
What I really tend to judge an actor on is how they act in the background of a scene. What is that actor doing while the focus isn't on him? [...] I've never noticed Joe Flanigan checking-out. He's as much John Sheppard when he's listening to someone talk in a meeting as he is when he's actively going after an enemy.
YES. YES YES YES.
You can see the entire (currently 3 pages of comments long) entry and discussion of John/JF over atseperis's journal here. And you should, if you are a fan of John Sheppard/Joe Flanigan at all, because the fans over there? Are amazing.
Now, on to the squee!
There were a lot of things that I absolutely loved, and there are lots of spoilers (Stargate: Atlantis 3x10), so if you haven't seen the episode and you intend to do it, STOP READING RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!
~John packing up his room, and Teyla and Ronon knock and they have their little bonding moment of "This sucks" was terrific! I love that Ronon could just pick John up and swing him around in a hug.
~John going offworld with a different SG team once he's back at the SGC, coming back, and confessing that he never knew that he'd miss having Rodney on his team. Rodney was whiny, yes, but he was snarky, and also? Not clumsy.
~Carson going to Elizabeth's apartment to drag her out to join the world
~Rodney missing the rest of his team at Area 51
~Ronon and Teyla's interactions. I don't often have a lot of overt love for Teyla, but she's totally great in this ep. And Ronon and Teyla's dynamic was AMAZING, because they answer for each other, and they stick together even though Ronon's totally not suited to being a farmer, and that's what the Athosians are.
~John quoted The Princess Bride at Elizabeth! (the book, not the movie, which also would have been cool)
~In order to distract Dr. Lee, Rodney made Elizabeth talk about World of Warcraft with him!!!! That will never stop being cool.
~John and Rodney! Talking on the phone!
~Carson got pet turtles!
~John shutting off General Landry so that he won't know what Hank'll do to his military career if he doesn't turn that jumper around RIGHT THE FUCK NOW
OMG, there were so many things that I loved like I love my sister's kid, I just can't go into it all right now. It was AMAZING.
seperis's livejournal entry on the same subject.The topic of JF being a bad actor normally comes up in conjunction with the topic of David Hewlett (Rodney McKay, henceforth referred to whenever possible as DH) being a great actor [as if one cannot be good if the other is good; or as if they are mutually exclusive; or as if to make DH seem better, one must denigrate his costars, namely JF]
One of the things that
seperis brought up is whether or not it was because DH is so flamboyant as Rodney McKay, and whether it was just that people perceived the more flamboyant actor as being the better and more skilled actor.It's easy to think that DH is amazing for a few reasons.
1) He is amazing. He's an incredibly versatile actor with a lot of experience, and it shows.
2) As Rodney McKay, he is flamboyant to an extent that I think there should be another word for it. Every time DH is onscreen on SGA, there is no way for him to sit quietly in the background; when Rodney is in a scene, there is always some peripheral part of the scene that is focused on him.
3) As Rodney McKay, he gets to save the day. A lot. In lots of cool ways.
4) Because he's not traditionally hot. In general, the perception of not-so-traditionally-hot people is that they must have some sort of mad ninja skills or something to go along with and augment whatever else they're doing (in DH's case, acting).
This does not, however, mean that JF is a bad actor.
As Sheppard, JF is playing a character who is much more subtle, complicated, and much more private. Sheppard, before crash-landing O'Neill, had never heard of gates, or the Stargate Program, or anything else--whereas Rodney had made it his life's work. He wasn't meant to be in command of the expedition, and sometimes he doesn't do a great job (see Hot Zone for example) because he doesn't have the command experience and general know-how that a more experienced officer would.
The thing is, JF is playing a character who is flawed. John--God knows I love him--is not perfect. He's not always the best, but he does his damnedest. And JF acts him that way, which in my opinion, makes him a great actor.
It takes a lot of skill to be an actor who is constantly ON in a role (DH as Rodney). It takes a lot of skill (albeit a different sort) to play a character who is as subtle as Sheppard. JF has that skill, and I like it.
And to DH fans who bash JF... DH is awesome enough without you bashing his coworkers. Saying that Joe Flanigan (or Torri Higginson, or Paul McGillion, or Rachel Luttrell, or Jason Momoa, or whoever) is a bad actor does not make DH more awesome. It just makes you look like an
I think maybe it's the character of Rodney rubbing off on the DH fangirls--Rodney's very in-your-face, very "I'm so very right and you are wrong, wrong, so very pathetically wrong" at times, and his fans just absorbed that attitude in an unfortunate way.
Whereas John is more subtle, a little more oddball, less in-your-face... but he can be sharp and on-target and "I can kill you in 47 different ways without breaking a sweat, but I'll let you live... or not." And some of JF's fans can definitely do that, as well.
Character influences fans? Or fans just being that way naturally? Are DH's fangirls naturally more "I'm right and you are horribly wrong" and JF's fangirls naturally more "I'll put up with you to a point, but then I'm gonna make your momma cry when she sees what I've done to you"? Or did our favorite characters make us this way?
The way I see it is, I love all of John's team.
But the reason that John is (and always will be) my OTC isn't because he and I are both introverts, or because I think that Sheppard is inherently better than any of the other characters, is because he just seems so REAL to me.
I mean, I know people like John Sheppard. They made a choice, it had unexpected consequences, and they weren't (and aren't) always prepared for exactly what those consequences would be, but they do their best to deal and go on with their life anyway.
Case in (fairly long) point: John Sheppard was in Antarctica because at some point in time, he decided to join the Air Force. He then completed training to be an officer, and eventually was stationed in Afghanistan where he screwed up by doing what he thought was right (and what his COs thought directly conflicted with his orders).
Once in Antarctica, he made the best of it ("I kind of like it"), and when a weird glowing squid thing came out of the ice to attack the chopper he was piloting, he did the best he could, landed, and ended up going under the ice. Where he sat in a chair, activated the Ancient Tech like no one's business, and was bullied onto the expedition roster. He went through (presumably) a crash course on the Stargate Program, the history of the Ancients, and Would-you-like-to-be-on-the-expedition-why-of-course-you-would-it's-the-opportunity-of-a-lifetime. And then he went on a mission where he ended up having to shoot his CO, and suddenly, he's in charge of the military force of an expedition he joined at the very last minute.
Point is, John Sheppard did not ask for this life. He wanted to be a pilot, he joined the USAF. The rest of it kind of fell into place like particularly screwed-up dominoes. But John deals with it the best he can, and he's not so over-the-top that you'd think he never has any doubts, because obviously he does. He doesn't actually have the experience of a good base commander, but he does his damnedest not to let his people down. He's a REAL person.
And I like that, because that makes him seem like someone that I could know, and not just a character on a (really cool) TV show that's so far beyond my ken as to be laughable. McKay, however cool and smart I think he is, is nothing like anyone I've ever met before in my life; it fits him for the purposes of the show, because I don't think the world could stand too many Rodney McKays, but it doesn't fit for purposes of becoming my OTC, because I just can't relate to him. Teyla and Ronon, god knows I love all of John's team, I don't know anyone like them. They're kind of like ideals, less like real people I might meet on the street, all unknowing. They're so strong and persistent and patient (in different ways, but they both have these traits) that I look up to them in a way, but I don't feel like they're real in the same way that John, my lovably-flawed and human John, seems to be.
My favorite bit of John thus far in S3 was in Sateda when he and Teyla were talking onboard the Daedalus, and he awkwardly tried to verbalize that the expedition in general (and his team in particular) were his family. It was awkward, because John Sheppard is not about big emotional over-the-top declarations, but it was REAL. And that will hook me faster and more thoroughly than any heroic over-the-top speeches.
queen_of_goat made a couple of comments in response to seperis that I particularly agreed with:Joe thinks so much about who John is as a person and all he can think is that John wouldn't stand there for 10 seconds with a tense look on his face, he would get off his ass and do something.
Another reason why John seems real to me--JF puts visible effort into getting inside John's head, and so it leads me to think, "It's not that he's a bad actor at all--because he's not. It's not that John Sheppard's a bad character, or that JF plays him poorly--because he's not and Joe doesn't. It's more that the writers are trying to do a lot of things, and don't always think, 'Would John Sheppard do this?'"
What I really tend to judge an actor on is how they act in the background of a scene. What is that actor doing while the focus isn't on him? [...] I've never noticed Joe Flanigan checking-out. He's as much John Sheppard when he's listening to someone talk in a meeting as he is when he's actively going after an enemy.
YES. YES YES YES.
You can see the entire (currently 3 pages of comments long) entry and discussion of John/JF over at
seperis's journal here. And you should, if you are a fan of John Sheppard/Joe Flanigan at all, because the fans over there? Are amazing.Now, on to the squee!
There were a lot of things that I absolutely loved, and there are lots of spoilers (Stargate: Atlantis 3x10), so if you haven't seen the episode and you intend to do it, STOP READING RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!
~John packing up his room, and Teyla and Ronon knock and they have their little bonding moment of "This sucks" was terrific! I love that Ronon could just pick John up and swing him around in a hug.
~John going offworld with a different SG team once he's back at the SGC, coming back, and confessing that he never knew that he'd miss having Rodney on his team. Rodney was whiny, yes, but he was snarky, and also? Not clumsy.
~Carson going to Elizabeth's apartment to drag her out to join the world
~Rodney missing the rest of his team at Area 51
~Ronon and Teyla's interactions. I don't often have a lot of overt love for Teyla, but she's totally great in this ep. And Ronon and Teyla's dynamic was AMAZING, because they answer for each other, and they stick together even though Ronon's totally not suited to being a farmer, and that's what the Athosians are.
~John quoted The Princess Bride at Elizabeth! (the book, not the movie, which also would have been cool)
~In order to distract Dr. Lee, Rodney made Elizabeth talk about World of Warcraft with him!!!! That will never stop being cool.
~John and Rodney! Talking on the phone!
~Carson got pet turtles!
~John shutting off General Landry so that he won't know what Hank'll do to his military career if he doesn't turn that jumper around RIGHT THE FUCK NOW
OMG, there were so many things that I loved like I love my sister's kid, I just can't go into it all right now. It was AMAZING.
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here from f-list
24/9/06 23:30 (UTC)Re: here from f-list
25/9/06 00:25 (UTC)I also find Rodney endlessly fascinating :) I think I might do another entry on my love for Rodney later; the John Sheppard/Joe Flanigan meta today has worn me out, though.
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25/9/06 19:04 (UTC)But what I found so refreshing in the discussion, is that so many people could appreciate both actors without doing the other one down. It restored my faith in the fandom.
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25/9/06 19:18 (UTC)no subject
25/9/06 19:27 (UTC)And that telephone conversation *never stops* being so adorable.
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25/9/06 19:29 (UTC)Um. I kind of maybe kind of worship your fic and your entries a
littlelot. Really. Realy a lot.The convo really does never ever stop being adorable! They had dinner plans!
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25/9/06 19:34 (UTC)I don't get fandom sometimes :(
Thanks for an interesting post!
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25/9/06 19:36 (UTC)It's just... probably a really small minority, but they're really loud and obnoxious about it, when the bash any of the SGA actors in favor of making DH/Rodney look good.
And the post over at
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25/9/06 19:42 (UTC)Anyways, proof of the greatness that is JF's acting: "38 Minutes", I loved his performance in the puddlejumper.
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25/9/06 19:44 (UTC)no subject
25/9/06 19:57 (UTC)I don't have anything else to add, I agree with everything you said and you said it much better than I would have. :)
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25/9/06 19:57 (UTC)And yes. *dinner plans* Cross-state booty calls, some might say.
I mean, I'm not saying that or anything. Just, you know. You have to wonder, since Rodney's got a hotel room certainly. Where there can be hanging out and somesuch.
no subject
25/9/06 22:36 (UTC)I'd counter that voicing a negative opinion of an actor you like does not necessarily make a person look like an idiot. While I personally think JF is a good actor, it's a subtle sort of acting, and on a show that's not usually encouraging about watching for nuance. I can see viewers losing track of what Joe's doing among the flashier bits of the episodes. People have different opinions about what makes up good acting, and if a particular performance doesn't engage them, all the name-calling in the world isn't going to magically make it the stuff of their personal Emmys.
no subject
25/9/06 22:43 (UTC)But I'd never think of bashing Joe, he is a great actor. John doesn't get written oportunities to obviously express things as much as Rodney does, because their characters are so different (as you've pointed out) but Joe does great with what's there. He stays true to character and if you watch him he does GREAT stuff. I mean, Sateda when they're all in the cage because of Ronon's past... just watch him in that scene. Wow.
Joe has range too, it's just more subtle most of the time, which works because John is private. He might be openly friendly and easy going and popular and so on but he's private, he keeps a lot locked away and he's not really that good with people. Or not as good as most think. The character's a closet Dork (which is not a bad thing).
So, yes, DH is a brilliant actor and I love him and Rodney, but John is great, and Joe's a brilliant actor. He's also a nice guy, and puts up with Jason randomly swinging him around or doing odd stuff in public (and, I wouldn't be surprised to hear, on set too).
Not that I'm dissing Jason either, such a nice man. Can't dance brilliantly, doesn't know the Time Warp but come on, he did the Hakka with a broken hand! Probably not actually broken but badly hurt. And his smile...
*runs off before she starts babbling*
no subject
26/9/06 00:50 (UTC)I am a DH and JF fan. I don't know which rabid McKay fans you are referring to but I think I'll be happy to not know them! I've probably encountered more anti-McKay fans and pro JF fans, though why the hell anyone feels that liking one necessitates hating the other is beyond me!
I have had interesting discussions with friends off the net about the merits or rather fandom's treatment of both JF and DH. I don't think I write it down mainly because I feel that whatever I write will never sufficiently express what I really feel.
I don't think that DH is a better actor or the best actor... he's ok I suppose but as you put it, he's been given a character that's more "flamboyant" so it's so patently obvious when he's acting. Certainly he tackles his characters with passion and perhaps because McKay is so vocal, people tend to woobify him.
JF's character on the other hand is more subtle and I also think that there are many layers and complexities to that character. His acting doesn't come across all the time as being out there, but I've been really impressed in Season 3. I think it's very hard to pull off showing these when he has to do it through his actions rather than words. But I always think that good acting is when you don't notice it standing out in your face.
I think that JF handles John's awkwardness, his inability to express himself and his various attributes brilliantly or as good as he can, given the limitations of the script and character on the show. :)
no subject
26/9/06 01:15 (UTC)On another note...
But SQUEE FOR the Return!
What is there NOT to love about this ep? Ok, maybe a couple of dodgy bits here and there... but wee turtles... oh Carson, I just cracked up! John's comment about turtle soup and Elizabeth's reaction made me laugh.
I loved the phone call between John and Rodney. I almost high-fived - I like the idea of them still keeping in touch and being friends. I like the idea of Rodney being all lonely and willing to sort of admit it to John.
The goodbye moments between John and Teyla and Ronon were fantastic too :)
no subject
26/9/06 02:38 (UTC)I'm one of those "I like DH, and I like JF, and can't we all just get along?" fans, so I definitely don't think that we're mutually exclusive, even when we're specifically fangirling one or the other.
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26/9/06 02:43 (UTC)Even very pointed and sharp critique of a character/actor is fine, as long as people do it politely. "Bashing," to me, is when it's done in a mean fashion, much like flaming.
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26/9/06 02:46 (UTC)Really, I love the entire cast, even when their characters are being written doing things I don't like.
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26/9/06 02:49 (UTC)no subject
26/9/06 03:12 (UTC)Anyway, glad you stopped by, and liked what I had to say. Feel free to echo any sentiments you like; I don't mind repetition ;)
(Sadly, my LJ is not normally like this--it is much more often about boring things like real life, and not so much filled with fandom-related things)
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26/9/06 06:24 (UTC)I don't remember what i was going to say.
But, damn, *lovefilled sigh* that smile...
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26/9/06 11:56 (UTC)I haven't met any of the women, nor Paul or David (yet, seeing him in February) . And they are genuinly nice people, a little baffled about why we all find them so interesting I think, but very nice people.
I mean, I'm not a big Ford fan, I wish he'd been developed more and had time to grow before he left, or at least turned up more now. But Rainbow Sun Franks? I love that guy, errrr not like that, he's brilliant. Very energetic, very tollerant to all our strangeness and not to wigged out by all the attention, but very down to earth at the same time.
I do wish I could be a bit like Rodney at times aswell though. That said, I'm aleady started to do his 'talk via hands' thing, which is odd. I didn't do that on purpose!
no subject
26/9/06 12:05 (UTC)*fangirly squee*
Such a great smile!
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26/9/06 12:22 (UTC)no subject
26/9/06 12:23 (UTC)no subject
26/9/06 14:01 (UTC)Me? I just wave my hands, no idea if it'd make sense to you.
no subject
26/9/06 14:04 (UTC)I had some friends who literally could not speak clearly if they couldn't move their hands; if you made my friend Theresa sit on her hands, words would not come out of her mouth.
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26/9/06 14:11 (UTC)Really? *g*. Cool!